Introduction. [Recording date: July 17, 2024.]
Russ Roberts: Today is July 17, 2024. My guest is economist Noah Smith. You write in Substack at Noahpinion, NOAHPINION, Noahpinion. This is Noah’s fourth time on EconTalk. He ended up here in January 2024 discussing whether the nation can rob its way to wealth.
Our topic today is poverty, what Noah called in his story Noahpinion on this topic ‘the main enemy.’ Noah, welcome to EconTalk.
Noah Smith: Hello, good to be back.
Russ Roberts: I want to warn parents who are listening with children, this episode may touch on adult themes or language.
Russ Roberts: Why do you call it the ‘fundamental enemy’? It’s great, and I think it deserves that size. But, why did you use those words?
Noah Smith: That word comes from -Dr. Frankenstein. Therefore, the titular character, Dr. Frankenstein, is on a journey, I believe, to the Arctic, and is writing about the data he will find that will help humanity against the ‘important enemies of our race.’ Also, you name the elements themselves. He speaks coldly. How can people better survive the cold?
And the idea is that humans are born into a universe where the elements themselves are against us. Poverty is the basic enemy, not just because it is the basic or basic enemy, but because the universe itself is always trying to kill us with space rocks and disease and famine that reappears every few hours.
Russ Roberts: Yes, it’s an interesting, thought-provoking idea, which we can all embrace.
At the beginning of the essay, you say the following. Quote:
Asking why some societies in the world are still poor is the wrong question. Poverty is the default condition, not only of humanity but of the whole world. If only humanity it does not create anything–farms, barns, houses, water treatment systems, power stations – we will be there at the wildlife level. This is just physics. [Emphasis original.]
I think that cannot be denied. But you, with that stinging tongue, make it very clear what our challenge is as people who live in stone.
Noah Smith: Yes. That–I mean, that’s our situation in the world, right? If you look at the planets in the solar system, Mars or whatever, it’s just barren. OK? Life is rare.
And, even on earth, where life exists, most of it is at the level of absolute poverty. Animals are always at risk of starvation or being eaten. You know, that’s the only way animals are controlled.
And then, if you look at the history of mankind, most of the history of mankind, basically everyone lived in dire poverty. You know, I mean – I think, this is a silly concept – but even the kings: the kings had enough food and they had servants to do things for them. But, at the same time, due to the lack of modern technology, they were plagued by diseases all the time. And they were probably malnourished, literally – under a heavy burden of disease as children that crippled their intellect and physical health.
You know, we’re just—the average American is better than the old king, even if he has a few servants. OK? Now–
Russ Roberts: We have non-human workers who are more efficient than workers in the past, say, laundry, dishwashing, and many other things we’ve automated.
Noah Smith: Of course.
So, the status quo in most of the world–yanno, history, all life–is poverty. There is only a small fraction of non-poverty in the universe. We live in a small pocket without poverty in the universe. Every other place is always close to death. You know, everywhere.
Russ Roberts: I never thought about it. The lion is the king of the jungle, but the star of the lion is to make a living. If you find a good herd, you may have a good day. You may have a few good days.
But, you can’t climb above the minimum with any success because you don’t have the expertise. That’s right—as we’re going to talk about what enables people to think and experience a superhuman quality of life—our natural gifts for being able to walk upright, opposable thumb. These are all good things – and common sense. But if you don’t have the tools and those tools don’t improve, you stagnate. And, most of the history of man, as I once heard, George Will say, ‘Most of the history of man is, a man, if he’s lucky, a man standing behind a horse, walking behind a horse, watching the back of the horse while he’s pulling the plough.’ That’s like—those are good times. And, for most of human history, that’s as good as it gets. And, that meant–
Noah Smith: That’s right. You have seen it Monty Python and the Holy Grail, right?
Russ Roberts: Definitely.
Noah Smith: I think the best line about economic development and economic history ever said was in that movie, when someone said, ‘How do you know you’re king?’ And, another says, ‘He had no rubbish in him.’
Russ Roberts: Yes. That’s a vague way to describe pre-industrial life. Good point. And, we ate better dishes than all of us, of course, too, and we had a lot to eat.
But, it was limited. The castle was bigger than the hubble, but the castle was cold, except for those few rooms where there would be a fire in that place. What?
Noah Smith: Then it smokes. You didn’t have a thermostat.
Yes, we live like ancient kings. I mean we have jobs; we have a job. But I think, kings had jobs legally and had to work, too. Many kings work hard. We don’t always have people trying to kill us to get our inheritance.
It’s like: the reason you have Game-of-Thrones-type situations with people trying to kill the king all the time is because you’re competing for, like, the one position in society that isn’t poverty. [More to come, 8:00]
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